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Spell Alignments

 
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Cooker



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 PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 2:41 am    Post subject: Spell Alignments Reply with quote Back to top

This is a proposal to make the alignments in majesty more unique. I am tying all spells of a particular type to an alignment so each side. This way choosing a side also chooses the style of spells:

Life (prayers):
Life spells are mostly buffs. All life spells your living creatures in some way. Though Life alignment has a severe lack of offensive capability, their defensive prowess is unrivaled.
Example:
Bless: A creature automatically hit during duration of spell
Healing: classical first aid
Resurrection: When healing proved too little, too late

Order (enchantments):
Order spells are disablers. They are not de-buffs. Because when they are cast on the right target, they effectively render that target completely useless. Many orders spells are also mind spells for that reason.
Examples:
Silence: prevent a single target from casting any arcane/elemental spells during its duration.
Stiffness: prevents a single target from using a ranged weapon during its duration.
Transmute: prevents a single target from flying during its duration.

Death (necromancy):
Death spells are de-buffers. They apply to a wild spectrum of targets but they are usually not very debilitating, except in a few cases where it kills outright.
Wither: A targetís stamina is drained five times as fast as it normally would.
Examples:
Plague: half efficiency of target building. When cast on a market, it generate gold at half speed, when cast on a monster lair it spawns monster at half rate.
Terrify: A single henchman is rendered immobile for the duration of the spell.

Chaos (conjuration):
Chaos spells are usually summoning of some sort. They create all sort of weird persistent effect or creatures. Unlike other alignments, they usually donít need a target.
Examples:
Flowering strangle weed: conjure flowering strangle weed at a location.
Minotaur: conjure a herd of Minotaur to attack the target of the spell.
Illusion: Generate an illusion of an object. It could be building, heroes or even items.


Arcane/elemental (Evocation):
Arcane spells are usually direct damage in nature. They do so much damage that often times finesse is not needed. But they also have tendency to be area of effect so they could be more dangerous to caster then to target.
Examples:
Meteor storm: Falling meteor strike and large area with awful accuracy. Harms friend and foe, set buildings on fire until put out.
Earthquake: Damage all buildings on the map until spell expires. Awful against people that builds lots of inns.
Hand of winter: All living creature in a large area take massive cold damage from a blizzard until spell expires. Luckily itís useless against buildings.

Light (Creation):
Light Meta spells amplify effect of other spells. They do not do anything alone, however
Example:
Supercharge: range of all wizard guilds and temples are doubled.
Amplify: all direct damage spells do more damage.
Penetrate: direct damage spell negate spell defenses.

Darkness (Negation):
Darkness spells reduce effectiveness of desired spells. They do not do anything alone.
Example:
Life ward: Healing spell cast by everyone are at half effeteness. Resurrection cost doubled.
Fire ward: all units take half damage from fire. Buildings cannot immolate. Burning buildings extinguish immediately.
Ether drain: Cost of all spells doubled.
 
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Will the Spellcaster



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 PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

So you're saying that temples would have ranges like wizard guilds?
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Sorotor



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 PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Will the Spellcaster wrote:
So you're saying that temples would have ranges like wizard guilds?


I think you're kind of missing the point. :P

"I am tying all spells of a particular type to an alignment so each side. This way choosing a side also chooses the style of spells"

I disagree with that idea. Every alignment should have access to every style of spell, and their spells should not be restricted to a single function. Of course, certain alignments would tend more toward certain types of effect than others (damaging Life spells are pretty hard to imagine), but that would be a simple tendency, and not a codified order.
Let's see ... you've listed seven magical "elements" (for lack of a better word): Life, Order, Death, Chaos, Arcane, Light, and Darkness. Given those seven, here's my take on the idea of magical roles:

Life of course focuses on increasing the vitality of living beings, or in some cases restoring life to the dead. So Bless, Heal and Resurrection are legitimate Life spells.

Order is somewhat harder to define. The principle of Order is based on the Ideal: all things have a perfect form for which they strive. Spells based on Order would tend to one of three things: a) give shape to that which is formless, b) strengthen that which already is, or c) punishment for that which has transgressed the principle of Order. Hands of Steel and Iron Will fall into the second category; Petrification could conceivably fall into the third. Spells of the first category are not currently extant, but in any case, this shows my disagreement with Cooker over the role of Order alignment spells. Order spells are, or should be, primarily creative, and should most definitely not be limited to negative effects.

Death is, simplistically speaking, the antithesis to life. However, there is more to it than that. It might be truer to say that death is a force opposed to mortal life. Without going into theologic or philosophic detail, it is safe to say that Death as an idea incorporates the afterlife, that is, life after death, as well as necromancy and "living death". So, while Death magic would weaken the living (as Wither), it would strengthen the undead. Also, spells that play with the forces of life and death, such as Drain Life and Reanimation, seem to fall under the heading of Death as well. (Technically, of course, they could be classed under Life, but the connotations are wrong.)

Chaos is the opposite of Order, but it is also the opposite of everything else. Chaos is both creative and destructive, and cannot be neatly classed in any one set of spell types. Indeed, if carried to extremes, there would probably not be any set Chaos spells. But, for the sake of making this manageable, certain spells can be assigned to Chaos. The most fitting spells are, if you ask me, ones of mutation and confusion. Illusion would be a fitting Chaos spell, as would Transformation. Other spells currently related to Chaos through the Cultists, such as Vines and Charm, are not necessarily Chaotic, even though they can cause havoc.

Light spells would be, well, based on Light. I don't think there are any Majesty spells that would currently fall specifically under this category ... no, wait, there is Shield of Light. I say specifically, because any number of spells fall under Light if you consider it as a purely physical force and admit its corollary, heat. But I don't think Cooker meant this for fire spells. If you consider the metaphysical aspects of Light, you see that it overlaps in many areas with Life and Order. After all, light is what gives life, and light gives shape to darkness. Mainly I imagine Light as a force that would destroy evil enchantments and creatures and so on, and maybe protect those who do such deeds.

Darkness spells deal with shadow, the reverse side of light. In some areas this discipline probably overlaps with Death, but it does concern things other than life and death. Why darkness magic would act primarily to nullify other magic I have no idea, and am inclined to reject that idea.

Arcane spells are those that draw on the Ether Winds. They cover all non-divine spells. Considering this, Arcane is probably not really an "Element" or discipline in the same sense as the others, as it could contain them all. It depends partly on the mechanics of Ardanian magic. Ardanian Wizards rely solely on the Winds, and so all of their spells, attack, defense, summoning (which in my mind includes teleportation), and the forbidden arts come from this source. Since they can cast all manner of spells, the "element" of that spell cannot not depend on the god(s) associated it, otherwise the Wizard would have to worship that god in order to perform his magic. Conversely, the elements themselves have apparently no direct power, as they can be manipulated only through the Ether Winds. So ... Wizard and sorceror spells are arcane, and they are not limited to direct damage attacks.

I trust I make myself obscure. Rolling Eyes I know I rambled on more than necessary, but I'm loathe to go back and delete any more. So I apologize for the digressions, and hope you understood my point.
 
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Cooker



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 PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah. Although my point has more to do with strategic depth, yours have more to do with realism.
 
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Will the Spellcaster



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 PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I'd say there could be 2 god-teams this time: Life, Order, and Light, and Death, Chaos, and Darkness. The reason that Chaos would go with Darkness is because that in Darkness, things can change without your knowladge, and that would be Chaos. But of corse, people have probably suggested that before, and that wouldn't leave a whole lot of choice when you're deciding between the two, and I do like Agrela/Dauros/Lunord, but oh well. Just pointing out the semi-obvious to those who obviously don't need it. Mr. Green
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Sorotor



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
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 PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Well, as Will says, he's already pointed this out (and cooker actually implied it), but the alignments do fall rather neatly into the Temple structure. Life, Order, Death and Chaos are all fairly obvious. Light and Shadow do not, however, since Light can legitimately be connected to both Helia and Lunord, and Darkness could be connected to Lunord, Krypta and, as Will also noted, Fervus.
I do actually object to the idea of limiting spell types to Temple alignments for strategic reasons as well, although I admit that my post tended to obscure that point. If Fervus had only summoning spells and Krypta only de-buffers, that would not be a healthy state. However, I now confess that when I first read this I was under the impression that Cooker was referring to all spells, Hero and Sovereign. You will correct me if I'm wrong, Cooker, but I now believe that you meant your remarks to refer only to Sovereign spells. That isn't so bad, although I still disagree. For instance, Fervus Healing isn't summoning and Reanimation is most definitely not a "de-buffer", but I would see them changed for any earthly consideration.
Okay, let's see about alignments/elements and their current colour code (I hope these are the right colours; it's been a long time since I've actually played the game).
Arcane - Wizard's Guild - Purple
Life - Agrela - Blue
Order - Dauros - Light Grey
Death - Krypta - Red
Chaos - Fervus - Green
Fire - Helia - Yellow
Wind - Lunord - Dark Grey
Arcane - Sorceror's Abode - Pale Yellow
So, apart from my fondness for making lists, what was the purpose of this little exercise? Well, hopefully, to organize my own thoughts on spell alignment.
Alright. Ardania has two sources of magic: the Ether Winds and the power of the gods (if you count innate abilities, that makes three). To reflect this, the spells could be classed into two main group: Arcane or Ethereal and Divine. Arcane spells incorporate every magical element (a term I prefer to alignment), whereas Divine magic specializes in a particular element. On the other hand, Arcane spells tend to be less powerful than their divne counterparts, and in some cases there are no counterparts at all (no Arcane Healing, for example). The elements are: Life, Order, Death, Chaos, Aerial, Solar, Lunar, Astral, Shadow, and Temporal, Aerial deals with the weather (not just air), Astral with the stars, and Temporal with time. I'm not sure about the last one, but included it because it sounded cool. I left out the classical elements (Fire, Water, Wind and Earth) because it seemed redundant. At least half of the elements I listed incorporate the classical elements, For example, Fire has a legitimate place in Life, Order, Death, Chaos, and Solar magic.
I'll post more about this idea later. It's dreadfully hot where I live, and it tends to sap imagination and willpower.
 
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Sorotor



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 283

 PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Okay, as I've stated, I've set out ten elements: Life, Death, Order, Chaos, Solar, Lunar, Astral, Aerial, Shadow, and Temporal. Now to deal with their relations to the gods and types of spells associated with them (offense, defense, support, etc.)

Gods, Elements and Magic

Aerial (dark grey)

Description:Aerial magic relates to the wind and to weather. It consists primarily of heavy damage magic, such as conjuring tornadoes, typhoons and lightning storms. However, certain beneficial spells, like Winged Feet, also belong to this element.
Spell Examples:
Winged Feet - Gives the character the speed of the winds.
Whirlwind - Stationary funnel of wind that blows enemies away and slightly damages nearby units and structures.
Tornado - Moving funnel of wind that blows enemies away and greatly damages units and buildings.
Lightning - Causes electrical build-up in the sky to discharge, causing heavy damages to one target.
Tempest - Wide area effect spell. Raging winds hamper movement, slashing rain drains stamina, and numerous lightning strikes threaten those caught in the Tempest.
Fly - Causes the character quite literally to fly as if he had wings.
Deity: Lunord is the God of the Wind.

Astral (light blue)

Description: Astral magic draws its power from the stars. I haven't really given much thought to the general natural of Astral spells, though.
Spell Example:
Astral Fortune - Maximises the character's hit percentile (i.e., eliminates the random factor from damage calculations and always makes the character's attack hit with full force). In addition, all characters with Critical Hit ability automatically makes critical hits.
Deity: Lunord is the God of the Moon, and therefore, by extension, god of the stars as well.

Chaos (green)

Description: Chaos is a random force. It focuses, if it can be said to focus at all, on creating pointless changes in the natural order. It draws heavily on chaotic elements in nature and mortals. Chaos spells can be either harmful or beneficial, or just annoying.
Spell Examples:
Healing - More expensive as a Sovereign spell than Agrelan Healing, but just as effective.
Vines - Unnaturally tough vines spring up out of nowhere and entangle the target (this could be an area effect spell).
Illusion: Causes an illusory double of the target to appear. (I don't see how this could be applied to a building, at least not as the spell stands.)
Mutate: Transforms target into a random low-level monster.
Shapeshift: Transforms the caster into an animal (Roc, Varg, Hellbear).
Deity: Fervus is the Face of Chaos.

Death (red)

Description: Death magic covers a lot of terrain. Instant death spells, life absorbtion, raising undead, and supernatural terror are all covered by this domain. In addition, death magic also includes mind-control magic and debiliting special effect spells.
Spell Examples:
Wither - A negative spell that weakens the physical abiities of the target.
Summon Skeleton - Brings forth a humanoid Skeleton to serve the caster.
Control Undead - Exerts mental influence over "wild" undead, causing them to fall under the caster's command.
Possession - Completely suppresses the target's will and allows the caster to take over the body.
Drain Life - Transfers life energy from target to caster, healing the latter and hurting the former.
Deity: Krypta is the Goddess of Death.

Life (blue)

Description: Life spells tend to consist of support magic, whether healing or bonuses to abilities. Offensive magic is virtually non-existent within the Life element.
Spell Examples:
Healing - Cheap and effective for the sovereign, free for the individual caster.
Blessing - Strengthens the target.
Resurrection - Restores a target to life. (There ought to be a limit on this if you ask me. Besides income levels. Even in a fantasy kingdom, you can't just bring people back from the dead whenever you feel like it.)
Deity: Agrela is the Goddess of Life.

Lunar (silver)

Description: Lunar magic derives from the Moon. It tends to focus on indirect effects, but is possessed of several powerful curses.
Spell Examples:
Lunacy - Drives the target insane and may cause him to fall under the caster's control.
Lycanthropy - Turns the target into a werewolf.
Transformation - The caster can assume a specified shape.
Summon Silver Wolf - The Silver Wolf is similar to the Varg except that it is good. They are considered to be the messengers of Lunord, and are often found accompanying Adepts. (See Greymane's idea. If you don't know what that is, I'll try eventually to dig it up.)
Lunar Regeneration - Constantly restores hitpoints. Less powerful than Solar Regen, but since it stacks with other regen spells/abilites, it can be more useful.
Deity: Obviously Lunord.

Order (light grey)

Description: Order, as I said above, is the power deriving from form and purpose. Order spells are usually either beneficial support or judgement-type enchantments.
Spell Examples:
Iron Will - Greatly increases the caster's Willpower and Magic Defense.
Petrification - Turns an offender to stone.
Exorcism - Disrupts the foul magic animating an undead.
Deity: Dauros, God of Justice.

Solar (gold)

Description: Solar magic derives from the Sun. It tends to focus on offensive spells, but includes some defensive and support magic as well.
Spell Examples:
Solar Flare - Powerful attack which first causes the air to combust around a target, than blasts them with a concentrated heat ray from on high.
Fire Hammer - A powerful attack unique to Solarii.
Solar Regeneration - Energy from sunlight is transformed into health.
Exorcism - Like the Order spell, but more powerful.
Deity: Helia, Goddess of the Sun (of course).

Shadow (black)

Description: Shadow magic deals in the power of darkness and things unseen. It focuses, as you might expect, on mental attacks.
Spell Examples:
Possession - As the death spell, but used by creatures other than undead.
Pain - A direct damage attack that increases in potency for every wound the caster has suffered.
Bad Karma - A direct damage attack based exclusively on the number of creatures the target has slain. The more kills, the more damage taken.
Deity: None specifically, but krypta, fervus and lunord all have connections to darkness.

Temporal (?)

Description: Magic that manipulates time. I haven't really thought about this one. I do have some spells, though.
Spell Examples:
Haste - Causes time to pass more quickly for the target, making him faster. Since it is from a different element, this would stack with Winged Feet and similar spells.
Slow - Opposite of Haste.
Deity: None.

So far, this has dealt solely with Divine magic. Arcane magic, although sometimes utilizing these elements, is quite different and has an element of its own.
 
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Cooker



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 PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

cool magic system ! someone should use it in their games !
 
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Lurn



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 PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Have either of you played Dominions II or Lords of Magic? I know Cooker plays Age of Wonders, but I know both Dom II and LoM have some interesting magic systems. I'll post them later, if you're interested.

Fal, Alfryd and Cooker should be hired by Cyberlore for their good ideas. Wink
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Sorotor



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 PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Cooker wrote:
cool magic system ! someone should use it in their games !


Hopefully Cyberlore will use it in Majesty. Razz Really, I was just trying to build off the existing magic structure. Death, Life, Chaos, Order are already present, and so are Aerial and Solar, to some extent.
Lurn, I have never played any of those games. I am interested in their magic systems; never hurts to gain more information. and yes, we should be employed by Cyberlore. Wink Or maybe ...
 
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Will the Spellcaster



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 PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Yup, you all should definatly be employed for ideas, wheather for in-game stuff or historic things. You are also good at storytelling, you know...

Anyways, don't you think that Lunord being the only deity controlling 3 elements is a bit unfair? Not that I mind more power to Lunord, I just know that plenty of people won't like the increased power. And, if Maj2 is going to be 100's of years later, I wouldn't be suprised if some new deitys appeared as well...
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Sorotor



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 PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Well, it was Cyberlore's idea to make Lunord God of both Wind and Moon. I just thought the stars were a natural extension. Demigos for Moon and stars could be made, though, since Lunord despite his name seems more interested in wind domain.
 
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Lurn



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 PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Here's Dominions' system, the more interesting of the two.

Dominions II

There are eight Paths of magic in Dominions, which can actually be mixed togoether. For instance, an blood boiling spell might require Blood and Fire magic, or a freezing mist spell Air and Water.

Paths:

Fire
Fire is your average explosive and fiery magic.

Water
Water is the power of floods, ice, and the sea.

Earth
Earth is the power of construction, of metal, of gems and the earth.

Air
Air is the power of the wind, the air, and the clouds.

Astral
Astral is the power of the stars, the mind, and the astral planes.

Blood
Blood is the power of sacrifice, of demons, and anything relating to blood.

Death
Death is power over the dead, misery, and hopelessness.

Nature
Nature is the power of trees, plants, growing things, and physical health.
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Sorotor



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 PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Interesting. I actually thought about Blood and Nature elements too, but decided against it. Blood because most relevant aspects are covered by Death or Shadow (or Life), and also because I don't especially want to delve too deeply into the darker side of such magic. As for Nature, I thought it sufficiently covered by Order, Chaos, and Life. (I notice that Dominions doesn't have a life element.)
 
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Lurn



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 PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

The lack of a "Life" element is actually good, in my opinion. Life just seems generic, or overdone to me.

Besides, most of "Life" is mostly just Nature, and what's left can usually be covered by Astral.

Really, in Dominions, no magic (except Blood), is truly evil. It's just the way you use it. For instance, there's a Death spell called Well of Misery that drains all the unhappiness from the population and turns it into Death gems (magical resources that can be used for casting spells).

Speaking of that, magic gems are one of the more interesting points of Dominions. Instead of a general, blanket "Mana" or "Casting Points" system, spells fatigue the caster but also take magic gems. Magic gems are specific to each path, and there one for each (Death gems, Water gems, and so on). To cast a Death spell, you'd need a certain number of Death gems depending on the power of the spell.

(Dominions is a TBS fantasy game, by the way.)
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