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Would you like to see direct sovereign-hero interaction, given what Cyberlore has demonstrated possible?
Ah, why not. My heroes are always getting into dumb situations where they could use my guidance.
 30%  [ 9 ]
Never, my heroes are as free as the birds of the sky and I want 'em that way. Control freak.
 70%  [ 21 ]
Total Votes : 30

Alberinian Wildmaster

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 PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I voted no. Though it is annoying when I have to replace a keboard or monitor when someone gets fustrated with the indirect control thing. Like a level 3 Paladin trying to take down the Liche Queen on her own.
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 PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Spellcaster Will, I found your ideas interesting but that they mostly fall under the idea of improvements to AI, some of them challenging to implement. But for the sake of argument I'll take up a few points:
lowering the chance that a hero/hero group/guild will do something the more times you ask them...

Okay. How long does a hero remember a specific request? How many requests will he/she/it remember? Shouldn't they also be sensitive to requests that are very similar? (say, moving to a spot 3 feet from the same target monster as before, and then attacking?) There are AI systems that can match planning elements toward goals like this, and measure their similarity, but they're by no means simple or economical.
If you ask a group of heroes to do something more than once, then each of the heroes' rates will drop...

The ideas on group relations are close to what I had in mind myself, but I think it could be stramlined using the same kind of 'goal comparison' applied to checking sovereign requests. Members of the group would follow or leave based on the degree to which their respective goals are compatible/similar.
Hero relationships/emnity/liking developed could also be extended to factions/temples/hero classes as a basis for the likelihood of that paladin attacking a temple to Fervus. You could use associative learning or rule induction to allow a hero who's had hard time with cultists to develop a particular dislike for the church of Fervus in general.

However, this is all falling under the heading of what heroes will do by themselves, rather than how the sovereign would interact with them.

Alfryd the problem with doing the reward system on a more personal basis is that it just ends up being a slower version of being able to control the units. Say you want those rouges to attack the inn and you offer a reward and they reject it. The very next thing you are going to do is not give up on the idea of the attack but instead go back and offer them a little bit more money. The result will be players continuing to add a little more and a little more until the rogues do it.

As opposed to the current system, where you just keep adding more and more gold to reward flags until every hero on the map is attracted to the 10K reward flag on the monster in question? Same principle, only this time, *every* hero on the map is subjected to your insidious enslavement via, um... offering them obscene personal wealth. So I can't really say my heart bleeds.
In practice, during RTS play, repeating the same reward to the same characters over and over would be at huge cost to the player in terms of time and attention spent. You have to select the task to perform, select the character(s), select the sum offered, and wait for the message to reach them via couriers before you can resend the offer. And the most precious resource in RTS isn't gold or bread or lumber, it's time and attention.
If you don't have enough gold then you will just wait around until you do... ...If you make it so the rouges can only be asked so many times or won't change their minds it simply becomes a waiting game until they are willing to commence the attack.

Your opponent is also 'waiting around,' and you have to weigh the cost of bribing individual heroes versus the simple one/two-click approach of a public bounty. A player who tries to orchestrate his heroes *exclusively* through private rewards will find him/herself rapidly beaten by an opponent who mostly uses public bounties and thus has more time to concentrate on his/her economy and large-scale strategy. Who has time to *think.* And the economy to be able to offer extortionate rewards in the first place.
The results might take a bit longer the selecting the players and telling them where to go, but in essence you are directing what the rouges are doing.

I'm sorry, you have played Age of Empires, Starcraft, etc against real human opponents? Can you *imagine* the control nightmares that would result if you had to select each unit individually to give an order, toggle the correct bounty, then wait for them to ponder 'what's in it for me?' before you even know if they will respond? Doing this with every unit in the field would be enough to send most players into a state of catatonia. You think this is remotely comparable to normal RTS hotkey-mania?
All you are left with then is a bunch of really smart units that can take care of themselves but when it comes time to battle you tell them how, where and when to attack.

If I do, better than half the time, they ignore me. So most of the time, I wouldn't tell them anything. I have better things to do. But sometimes one-to-one communication could pay big dividends. Therein lies the interest.
Personally I like the mob attack because of the challenge of convincing the right number and the right type of heroes to attack at the same time.

There are also games that revolve around the 'challenge' of clicking on a dancing monkey that reflexively dodges the cursor. This doesn't neccesarily make it subtle, interesting, or fun.
There is no way to reliably convince the right types of heroes to attack together at the right time in Majesty at present. The greediest heroes go first and provide a meat-shield until the heavy-hitters that you wanted notice the raised bounty. What marvellous techniques have you applied to pursuade paladins to tackle that noxious Yeti without first attracting rogues and elves like avaricious lemmings?
You can avoid recruiting elves and rogues, but this relegates them to disposable countermeasures if your opponent has massed wizards, rather than vital components of a balanced armed force.
...Majesty is special for the indirect control..

How is this direct control? It's specific, but it's not direct any more than flags are.
Ultimately I think the problems that you might be thinking of with the mob effect during attacks can be taken care of with good AI.

That simply means the AI will substitute for the human player, rather than leveraging that player's skill to greater effect. And since the AI needs to be equal for all players, most games will tend toward stalemate insofar as it is possible. Which tends to be downright dull. Sovereign spells and guild functions like CtA/RoK don't cut it for me anymore, they're simply the usual RTS click-frenzy in another guise and give an inordinate advantage to players with the elven cash bonus.
I have no objection to better AI (quite the opposite,) but I also want more involvement with the heroes at a meaningful level. (If you combined this with hero learning, you could use micro to help teach survival tricks, which does help leverage the skill of the player.)

I voted no. Though it is annoying when I have to replace a keboard or monitor when someone gets fustrated with the indirect control thing. Like a level 3 Paladin trying to take down the Liche Queen on her own.

Actually, that's one problem that private commissions probably won't solve.
Might you elaborate on your reasons?
The living are a species of the dead, and a very rare species.
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 PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:44 pm    Post subject: duh! Reply with quote Back to top

if i wanted full control obver my heroes ill go and play setelers!
that the "thing" (or at least one of them) about majesty
Ranger:how do i get to M2?
Wizard: go to that black hole
Ranger: that close?
Wizard: no, its at the end of it...
eternity is nothing to me.... but its something to others Razz
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