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Would you like to see direct sovereign-hero interaction, given what Cyberlore has demonstrated possible?
Ah, why not. My heroes are always getting into dumb situations where they could use my guidance.
30%
 30%  [ 9 ]
Never, my heroes are as free as the birds of the sky and I want 'em that way. Control freak.
70%
 70%  [ 21 ]
Total Votes : 30

Alfryd



Joined: 03 Dec 2002
Posts: 914

 PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Hiring heroes is an interesting idea, which I think Spiderman came up with before, though in the context of recruitment. I suppose longer-term requests to heroes with a regular paycheck wouldn't do any harm- and might well be in better accordance with the sim side of the game. But I was thinking of sovereign requests as one-shot dealies, that you'd issue to one individual at a time.
The reason I'm hoping for direct sovereign intervention is for those occasions when my hero's AI hasn't been quite up to the task of dealing with a situation, often due to a lack of information, sometimes due to inappropriate indifference. I wouldn't mind my heroes making mistakes, the problem being that that A. they don't currently learn from them, and B. they're often fatal. While I'm all in favour of improved hero AI to alleviate these issues, until such time as heroes are smarter than me, it seems only reasonable to give them the benefit of advice. Plus, they don't have the advantage of the minimap. Smile
Most RTS games drive you mad through the antlike stupidity of your troops. They don't automatically pick targets they can most easily dispatch, they don't run away when they're about to die by themselves, basic, simple, obvious things an intelligent biped ape shouldn't need to lose any sleep over. But if you allow the player to switch between interacting with heroes, and interacting with the settlement and beurocracy (which is all majesty currently consists of,) you can A. accomodate a wider variety of playing style, and B. potentially combine the best of both worlds.
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Spiderman



Joined: 28 Mar 2000
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 PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Was that really my idea? If so, it must have been a long time ago...

I was probably thinking along the lines that in keeping with the sims theme, it seems kinda weird to pay x gold and automatically get a hire like a RTS. I would have thought perhaps that from time to time, a hero would "wander" in and offer her services and you could hire her then. You could increase the chances of certain heros arriving by "doing stuff" that would attract such heros (beats me what exactly, maybe paying to beautify their temple or support their causes or donate to their temple?)

I think that if you want direct-sovereign intervention, the current sovereign spells would need to be limited to compensate - perhaps the range of a Palace/Outpost, similar to the Wizard Guild spells are limited in range.
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Alfryd



Joined: 03 Dec 2002
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 PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I agree that hiring heroes that wander by would be more in-keeping with the sim side of things, though I'd prefer if the sovereign were able to put up a 'help wanted' notice, rather than waiting for the heroes to make the first move. This is mainly an issue of screen clutter- if I keep getting popup notices that x, son of z, disciple of Fervus wishes to join my guild, I will go slowly mad. I'd prefer to just put up gold for the training and equipment of interested candidates, add a job description (level 5+ WoD wanted,) then check back at my leisure to see if the posts have been filled. If not, I can... increase the paycheck on offer?
I don't think temple spells would need to be limited too much. If the sovereign has to physically walk out to a hero to chat, forfeiting all sovereign spells when you leave the guardhouse/palace/outpost, etc. then walk all the way back to a palace/outpost/guardhouse before you can use sovereign spells again... you get me.
That said, I was thinking you might have a 'temple greed' factor that would gradually increase the cost of sovereign spells depending on how rich you are and how recently you last used the temple's spells, helping to offset the advantage of huge wealth. That'll cut them elves down to size. And a *lot* of heroes' hiring prices would need to be changed. I.E, Healers could become much more valuable, if you can specifically direct them to follow and heal, WoDs much less so, being largely incapable of following orders.
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Spiderman



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 PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Your idea of hiring heroes works for me. Just something different from the current process which feels out of flavor.

Heroes prices might not have change too much if some "decision-tree-like-thing" is out into place on how much a hero will be prone to actually taking the sovereign's suggestions.
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Alfryd



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 PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

True. You can always tweak the deicision trees, but in the process you'll effectvely create a very different hero.
On reflection, having the sovereign physically walk out on the map might be a tricky thing to integrate smoothly into the game. Maybe you could still issue construction orders by talking to peasants or use sovereign spells by stopping off at a temple? And, maybe you could still issue requests to heroes via runners or heralds of some kind when you're in the palace (though they're much less likely to comply that way, and might never find or reach the hero)? It would seem a bit smoother that way. Any thoughts?
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Spiderman



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 PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Beats me. I just agree with the idea in general. Haven't really thought about the specifics. Smile
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Alfryd



Joined: 03 Dec 2002
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 PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Hmm. The naysayers are catching up. Maybe Oasis' idea of an orders tab would be more appropriate? I mean in a fashion similar to putting up a job description and training money for a new recruit at a guild, you could put up a private commision for a particular hero- say, 300 gold to tackle a rampaging minotaur- which they can pick up on and fulfill at their discretion. Some heroes with very high loyalty might be disposed to fulfill a request without pay. They wouldn't respond immediately, because it would take time for the request to reach their ears- simulated by heralds, or message couriers, or a letter when they reach the inn, who knows. You could have some characteristic voicelines depending on whether they accept or refuse the commision:
Rogue:
"You make an offer I can't refuse..."
or
"Up the Ante."
Paladin:
"A noble cause."
or
"Unconscionable!"
The request can be cancelled or the reward scaled back at any time before the hero considers the commision, but you can't get your money back.
If and when they refuse the commision, the request disappears from the orders tab and you'll get the reward offered back. If and when they accept, you will not be able to reduce the sum offered, until the commision is fulfilled. You can still cancel the request. The request disappears once the hero fulfills their commision, at which point he/she receives the promised reward.
Would that be more palatable? It's essentially a form of reward flag that you can confine to a single hero and make much more specific and flexible.
One essential aspect of the whole hero-specific-interaction thing is that, although this should afford the sovereign a way to micromanage his forces, the game should be constructed in such a way that, on average, it is not actually in his/her interest to do so. Although there will be situations that call for a one-to-one dialogue between the sovereign and his champions- say, sending a lone rogue deep into enemy territory to assassinate a wizard- by and large, good players should realise that they save time and trouble by leaving heroes to behave independantly, leaving them to concentrate on their resource base and buttress their settlement. C'mon, it can work.
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Alfryd



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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2004 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I need to shut up while I'm ahead.
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SilverKhan



Joined: 17 Oct 2004
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 PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

the thrill about majesty was that you would simply say that creature needs to be slain and just wait and see if one would go do it or not ... that is just the fun of the game ... you should absolutly not be able to give em direct orders that would ruin the game experience...

if one should be added or be more explored it is your heroes forming parties, forming alliances and going out in group (like with 2, 3 , .. 10, ..).
and add a skill, leadership to see who leads the group.
 
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Alfryd



Joined: 03 Dec 2002
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 PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I have no objection to heroes forming adventuring parties and so forth, but you don't seem to have understood my proposition at all. This is not a case of issuing orders the hero is forced to obey. It's a case of one-to-one communication, of making a suggestion or request, that the hero might or might not feel like fulfilling. This differs from the current setup, where any offer you make applies indescriminately to all heroes at once, making it very difficult to practise subtler strategies where different troops have different roles. There's nothing here preventing you from setting normal bounties and watching your heroes attend to them. But this presents the player with a different option- and not necesarily a better one in all situations. For instance, it only takes a few seconds to set a public bounty that will attract a half-dozen heroes. It takes several seconds for each hero to arrange private requests to the same effect, and whether or not those heroes listen to you is STILL THE HERO'S decision. I, for one, find it very frustrating to see my heroes doing obviously stupid things simply because they don't have the benefit of the information at my disposal. Until such time as they are smarter than me, I think it's only fair I be able to dispense some one-on-one advice.
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SilverKhan



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 PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

well if you play a rpg game like say baldurs gate where your are the "hero" that needs to save the day or do this or that it is also the game that leads your right ... and you also have no clue of whatever is going on or whats going to happen ... nor have you got more information other then the one given to you by the game ... you have to base your decisions on it and see wether it is wrong or not ...

i think this is the same in majesty you cannot want to control everything even if it is giving a personal request to a hero ...

what would work is that similar like in mmorpgs is that when you issue a bounty or an order is that when a hero accepts the challenge whether in group or not that no other hero or group can take the same task. Kinda like putting a billboard in town and let the heroes go to it and see what they want to go off and do for task ...
 
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Alfryd



Joined: 03 Dec 2002
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 PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
...that no other hero or group can take the same task.

Isn't that roughly what I described? You pick a hero, you give them an errand, they might or might not accept it? Nobody else gets the offer, unlike a public bounty.
Quote:
... nor have you got more information other then the one given to you by the game ...

Yes, but these games don't have an intelligent sovereign character. I.e Me. I really don't see what's so difficult with the idea that a hero could get a personal letter from or attend a face-to-face meeting with their Sovereign. You know, as a first-among-equals sort of thing. Most heroes would still end up doing their own thing, because you simply don't have time to correspond/meet with them all constantly, and you also need to focus on construction, sovereign spells, recruitment, research and public bounties... Private requests are something you'd use for emergencies, or when your settlement is well established and most of your heroes and buildings are self-sufficient, and you don't have to babysit them. But it could be VERY useful.
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SilverKhan



Joined: 17 Oct 2004
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 PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

in my eyes giving direct orders / personal letters makes the game become more rts like all the other rts wehter or not the hero has the abillity to accept...

the difference between what i am saying is that i would prefer that heroes go to a billboard on which you put things that can be done by a hero and once one accepts the taks is taken off the billboard ...
it works the same way you want it to work but the difference is that it keeps in line of majesty's way of saying what needs to be done ...

but i guess these are personal views on things and so we can debate on why we want this or that done like we wish for hours... in the end both options would do as long as you can't interferre to much.
 
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Alfryd



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 PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
...in my eyes giving direct orders / personal letters makes the game become more rts like all the other rts wehter or not the hero has the abillity to accept...

By that logic, The Sims is more an RTS than Majesty. I'm sorry, this isn't making sense. IMHO.
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Oasis



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 PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Glad somebody started to listen to me...
 
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