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The MP game I didn't play :(
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Goldy_Bear



Joined: 13 Aug 2000
Posts: 2588
Location: Texas

 PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2003 3:28 pm    Post subject: The MP game I didn't play :( Reply with quote Back to top

Spidey,

These settings rise to a whole new dimension when you use them in an LPS multi-player game. Yeah, Chaos is much easier for fighting the monsters, but you cannot recruit WoD's and Rogues (unless you are suicidal and want to lose) because there are no loyalty structures. I had something like a 10K or more attack flag on my opponent's Socerer's Abode. He had a 3K attack flag on my Outpost. I still could not recruit Rogues because the 3K flag was closer than the 10K flag.

In multi-player Law is the better choice.

[ 05. May 2003, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: Goldy_Bear ]
 
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Spiderman



Joined: 28 Mar 2000
Posts: 3053
Location: Baltimore, MD USA

 PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 6:07 am    Post subject: The MP game I didn't play :( Reply with quote Back to top

Is it just the Outpost that makes it different? It doesn't have to do with the creatures, right? I only put that Enemy setting because of the horde of Wendigos that descend on your settlement and they're only really vulnerable to ranged units...
 
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Goldy_Bear



Joined: 13 Aug 2000
Posts: 2588
Location: Texas

 PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 12:43 pm    Post subject: The MP game I didn't play :( Reply with quote Back to top

quote:
Originally posted by Spiderman:
Is it just the Outpost that makes it different? It doesn't have to do with the creatures, right? I only put that Enemy setting because of the horde of Wendigos that descend on your settlement and they're only really vulnerable to ranged units...

Spidey,

It is all the settings combined that makes this a good and different multi-player game.

Typical multiplayer games involve power building and getting Solarii fast and whacking the other guy. Or, getting WoD's and whacking the other guy. Or, executing a good Krolm Rush and whacking the other guy. In many of these games, Gate is used to finish off the opponent or turn the tide to victory. In addition to Solarii being the premiere unit Chaos is superior to Law in multi-player games. Krypta's wither and the WoD's Howl of Discord pretty much neutralizes Monks and Paladins.

Once players figure this out they become stuck in the same old games. Always using Chaos, always power building to get Solarii, getting the Gate faster than the other guy.

These settings make for a good change because they are different and the same old strategies don't work. Because there are no loyalty structures you cannot use WoD's or Rogues. Because the monsters on the map are so strong and regenerate it is dangerous to use Gate and rush the opponent. Because of the Outpost settings Wizards, Solarii and Adepts are unavailable.

Many won't like these settings because their tried and true strategies won't work. But that in my mind is what makes the settings interesting and challenging. I was lucky to find a player like Gravity who was willing to try new things.
 
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M



Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 421
Location: Right here

 PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2003 5:10 am    Post subject: The MP game I didn't play :( Reply with quote Back to top

These settings still support My "RoK Paladins" strategy! It's fun to see paladins charging at high speed!
 
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Steven Of Nine



Joined: 26 Jul 2000
Posts: 1567
Location: Plano, TX, USA

 PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2003 1:46 pm    Post subject: The MP game I didn't play :( Reply with quote Back to top

quote:
Originally posted by Goldy_Bear:


Typical multiplayer games involve power building and getting Solarii fast and whacking the other guy. ..
Once players figure this out they become stuck in the same old games.

This setting has a novelty value, only. Because WoDs/Rogues are almost unusable, and therefore Chaos is unusable (try taking a building down with Priestesses and Cultists) you're forced to use Good. Since you can't rush, no one but me's gonna use Barbarians. It'll play out.

There is one setting that, when used equalises all factions, and that is initial money. Without 15K+ noone can Krolm rush, no one can lvl3 palace rush to Solarii.
Make 'em build a town.

10K and a New Settlement is the best setting for any survivable map, as it allows all the options, and the best player is going to win, because they'll have to grow their town and manage their heroes until they get an economy going.

Becuase the time required to upgrade to both a lvl 3 palace and lvl 3 marketplace is so long starting from 10K, the fates of both players will branch depending on how they're doing. Canned strategies don't work when the recruiting of heroes has peppered your town with houses, screwing up your building plan; when the slow build of structures places sewers in inconvenient spaces. (In town rushes you plonk everything down right where you want it before the inconvenient stuff happens.)

This game plan is good, in that the Outpost/15K requires long-term building. But it's useless in that it is suicide to use the Chaos forces. With New Settlements and 10K, all sides are still not equal, but the better town builder/manager will compensate for Law's weakness.
 
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Goldy_Bear



Joined: 13 Aug 2000
Posts: 2588
Location: Texas

 PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2003 2:04 pm    Post subject: The MP game I didn't play :( Reply with quote Back to top

quote:
Originally posted by Steven Of Nine:
This setting has a novelty value, only. Because WoDs/Rogues are almost unusable, and therefore Chaos is unusable (try taking a building down with Priestesses and Cultists) you're forced to use Good. Since you can't rush, no one but me's gonna use Barbarians. It'll play out.

Novelty value is much of my point. I am not proposing that these settings be used for every MP game anymore than any other settings. I also had a lot of fun playing a Wizard only game with Korben one time. I guess my point is that most players get in ruts and stuck on the same settings. I was complimenting Gravity for his willingness to try anything.

As far as Chaos being useless, there is more than one way to skin a cat as I discovered when I did without Rogues and WoD's. I was reluctant to use Barbarians with these settings because in freestyle I could not get the low level barbarians to survive long enough to level up. I am sure if anyone could you could.
 
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Spiderman



Joined: 28 Mar 2000
Posts: 3053
Location: Baltimore, MD USA

 PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2003 7:01 am    Post subject: The MP game I didn't play :( Reply with quote Back to top

I had trouble using Barbs in the single-player freestyle because they would just beat futilely on the Wendigos (for the most part) when the horde came. Maybe in MP, the horde is split up so you don't have to face all of them?
 
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Steven Of Nine



Joined: 26 Jul 2000
Posts: 1567
Location: Plano, TX, USA

 PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2003 9:43 am    Post subject: The MP game I didn't play :( Reply with quote Back to top

The secret to this scenario is the weakness of the Wendigos or the use of Cultists to charm them.

Their weakness is to magic or ranged fire. If you use Barbs, you must have a full compliment (8) of Rangers, with the Fire Balm available at the Bazaar. When you do this, barbs ring up lots of nice experience whacking away, whilst the Rangers do the killing.

Cultists do the same, in a way. Their charmed creatures hold off the Wendigos whilst the Priestesses and the Rangers do the killing.

With Good forces you're relying on the hand-to-hand invincibility of Monks/Paladins to allow them to whack away until the Wendigos are killed. It's actually just as easy using Warriors/Healers, the oft-forgotten super-combination. A Warrior, Followed-and-healed by a Healer, can hold off any creature or hero in the game outside of Named Super Foes. And, again, the Rangers make short work of them with their Fire-arrows.
 
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Spiderman



Joined: 28 Mar 2000
Posts: 3053
Location: Baltimore, MD USA

 PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2003 7:03 am    Post subject: The MP game I didn't play :( Reply with quote Back to top

Oh, I know their weaknesses. My goal was to see if I could do the scenario both ways, using Chaos which is obviously the easy way because of the Cultists and then Law (actually Krolm - Outpost - Law). It was the latter that was giving me a hard time. I probably recruited wrong, but since you started out with the two Ranger Guilds, I recruited them while building Krolm. Consequently, a lot of Rangers were off exploring when the Barbs started getting recruited and so not too many were Following and Aiding. So when the horde came, it was a haphazard defense.

Same with starting with Law, the Healers didn't come out in force enough help Heal the Warriors who were doing battle (that or they were defending their home which got under attack a couple of times when the horde came). A Warrior with a Healer can hold off one monster but not 2 or three whacking away at him (especially when a Wendigo teleports and starts whacking the Healer).

Going Law just took longer.
 
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Steven Of Nine



Joined: 26 Jul 2000
Posts: 1567
Location: Plano, TX, USA

 PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2003 4:19 pm    Post subject: The MP game I didn't play :( Reply with quote Back to top

quote:
Originally posted by Gravity:

Well if you think that law is superior to choas with these settigs, it leaves me to believe that you just havnt unlocked the full potential of chaos.

By relying on Fervus and Krypta so much you make yourself terribly vulnerable. Army of Skeletons? Chain Lightning makes mincemeat of Skeletons. Army of monsters? Simply target the Cultists, and that army becomes the enemy. You have to have the WoDs to fight. Wither slowing you down? Take out the Krypta Temples. The more you rely on one facet of Chaos, the more easy to defeat that player.

No WoDs means you can not defeat the Law forces when a hero gap opens.

The setting is a novelty.
 
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Gravity



Joined: 25 Oct 2002
Posts: 43
Location: Florida

 PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2003 4:33 pm    Post subject: The MP game I didn't play :( Reply with quote Back to top

original post by: steven og nine

By relying on Fervus and Krypta so much you make yourself terribly vulnerable.
--------------------------------------------------

Who said anything about relying on chaos? You should be able to use both guilds just as well. Just because you dont use krypta to its fullest potential doesnt mean its a novelty LOL . I agree law is easier to use with these settings but not neseceraly better. Want to see? Lets play...
 
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Gravity



Joined: 25 Oct 2002
Posts: 43
Location: Florida

 PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2003 11:45 pm    Post subject: The MP game I didn't play :( Reply with quote Back to top

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Steven Of Nine:
This setting has a novelty value, only. Because WoDs/Rogues are almost unusable, and therefore Chaos is unusable (try taking a building down with Priestesses and Cultists) you're forced to use Good. Since you can't rush, no one but me's gonna use Barbarians. It'll play out.

Well if you think that law is superior to choas with these settigs, it leaves me to believe that you just havnt unlocked the full potential of chaos. I think both guilds have there atributes. With chaos you can amass a huge armie of skeletons and wild creatures which responds quickly to attacks on your city. With law your heroes gain high levels quickly from having to fight all the critters. I just think that both law and choas are equal.The trick is to truely mastering both.... as far as barbarians go, i tried it and i thought it was boring. nothing to do but recruit and build.No spells...arrrgh. It was easy enough tho. If you still think choas is a novelty with these settings, id love to show you how its not:o)
 
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Steven Of Nine



Joined: 26 Jul 2000
Posts: 1567
Location: Plano, TX, USA

 PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 10:17 am    Post subject: The MP game I didn't play :( Reply with quote Back to top

quote:
Originally posted by Gravity:
Lets play...

Every time I see you online, you're in a room, alone, playing with yourself...
 
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Gravity



Joined: 25 Oct 2002
Posts: 43
Location: Florida

 PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 5:28 pm    Post subject: The MP game I didn't play :( Reply with quote Back to top

Every time I see you online, you're in a room, alone, playing with yourself...

What u cant wait 15 minutes for me to reamerge. You can bet if i see u in a room i will wait till your done.LOL Besides what am i suposed to do... stare at a blank screen when im the only one in the room? When u r ready to play i will show you choas.... Hey maybe i am wrong, but lets find out.
 
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Goldy_Bear



Joined: 13 Aug 2000
Posts: 2588
Location: Texas

 PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 5:44 pm    Post subject: The MP game I didn't play :( Reply with quote Back to top

Well....I don't think they want my opinion...So I will just talk to the wind.

These settings aren't about whether Law or Chaos is better. They are about who can make more gold under fire. I mentioned the problems with Chaos with these settings. I did not discuss the problems with Law related to these settings. It does little good to have muscle units like Paladins, Warriors and Monks that can take down buildings when they all (every last one of them) race back home to defend it from Wendigos and Werewolves destroying their town while they went off to attack the other guy. The "weaker" Chaos units Priestesses and Cultists are still strong enough to tie up the muscle long enough for Wendigos and Werewolves to rip through your town.
 
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