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Dumb Luck Rangers, Refex, or Lag?
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Goldy_Bear



Joined: 13 Aug 2000
Posts: 2588
Location: Texas

 PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2000 9:15 am    Post subject: Dumb Luck Rangers, Refex, or Lag? Reply with quote Back to top

I have to thank Mr. Fixit for holding this Majesty tournament (even though I’m not playing). In the last 3-4 days it has afforded me the privilege and fun of “scrimaging” with half dozen really good players who are playing. I have gotten to practice Krolm Rush a lot, so that others can figure out how to beat it. And, let me say right now that if you “scrimaged” with me on the weekend I may have done you a disservice (this means you Kit). My Krolm Rush has gotten better. And somebody’s wife showed me his, and his is probably better than mine (I didn’t name any names.)

All this leads me to a few questions? Why does the other guy’s Rangers get to my kingdom first? While my Rangers are still running around the market or exploring the wrong corner, my opponent’s Rangers have come to town and are shooting it up. Lets assume that the first thing I do before anything else when the game begins is click the Recruit button on the Ranger’s Guild. This is probably a mistake because then I can’t get my first building layed down before the Peasants come out and go back in. In some cases, the enemy’s Rangers have come for a visit before I’ve gotten my 4th recruited. Is this dumb luck or reflex? No, the other guy didn’t use explore flags. I asked. And yes, my mouse was hovering over that recruit button in between building and upgrading.

The seemingly random factor of whose Ranger is luckier in the opening of these tournament games could mean the difference between a win or a loss. If one Ranger takes down two Rangers on day two you are now 700 gold in the hole in a 15K gold game. That’s critical. And I have seen it happen.

I did have one outstandingly lucky Ranger in an Eldritch Circles game. This Ranger took off after picking up 5 healing potions in the market, went around the perimeter of the map bypassing all the Daemonwood and other monsters, landed at the doorstep of a market and Elven Settlement under construction and took them both out twice. Now who couldn’t win with that kind of advantage? Dumb Luck.

I am now convinced that lag can create an advantage/disadvantage at the beginning of the game. Recall the games that you have played in which displayed in the title bar is “Waiting on other players.” If you have been smart you have already clicked the recruit key on the Ranger’s Guild, clicked the upgrade on the blacksmith, have selected your first building to build and are waiting to drop it. When the other player finally gets in he is already behind in the build. You say it doesn’t make a difference? I beg to differ. I guarantee it does
 
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Jay Adan



Joined: 22 Dec 1999
Posts: 3018
Location: Northampton, MA USA

 PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2000 10:27 am    Post subject: Dumb Luck Rangers, Refex, or Lag? Reply with quote Back to top

I notice that you never once mentioned placing an explore flag. Was this just an oversight in the message, or one in the game?

I assume that this is what BlastoiseU was referring to when he started yet another new topic.



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Kit5150



Joined: 03 Apr 2000
Posts: 1327
Location: The Greatest Show on Turf, Missouri, USA

 PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2000 10:47 am    Post subject: Dumb Luck Rangers, Refex, or Lag? Reply with quote Back to top

if your rangers do not have the option to buy healing potions, they will be out exploring until scared off. either hold a market day, dont research healing potions, or get 8 rangers running around to get them out in the field and the map explored. this is probably why your opponent seems to find your town first.
 
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Amathar



Joined: 02 Aug 2000
Posts: 89

 PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2000 1:31 pm    Post subject: Dumb Luck Rangers, Refex, or Lag? Reply with quote Back to top

Rangers' AI seems to be pretty good at pathing the fogged parts of the map without the enticement of explore flags. My build order always has the Ranger's guild full ASAP, with no respect to when the Marketplace goes up. These two things combined has netted me pretty good discovery of my opponent, usually before I'm ready to place attack flags anyway!

Slightly off topic: Goldy, I'd reconsider that 200 gold spent on upgrading at the Blacksmith. I'm no statistics meister like some of the folks here, but my gut feel is that it's just not worth it out of the gate.

Just my $0.02...




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Jay Adan



Joined: 22 Dec 1999
Posts: 3018
Location: Northampton, MA USA

 PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2000 3:30 pm    Post subject: Dumb Luck Rangers, Refex, or Lag? Reply with quote Back to top

Ah, okay.

BTW - Does anybody else use staged explore flags to get around an obstacle? If I need to get around something like a tower I'll use a large reward to get the hero to one side of the map, then use incrementally smaller ones like a trail of bread crumbs to get the hero going exactly where I want. It's a good way to sneak a hero into your opponent's backfield.

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[This message has been edited by Jay Adan (edited 23 August 2000).]
 
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Kit5150



Joined: 03 Apr 2000
Posts: 1327
Location: The Greatest Show on Turf, Missouri, USA

 PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2000 4:05 pm    Post subject: Dumb Luck Rangers, Refex, or Lag? Reply with quote Back to top

yeah, i do. ive found that if placed pretty close together, all the explore flags after the first can be 100 gold and the same hero will go after them successively .
 
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Goldy_Bear



Joined: 13 Aug 2000
Posts: 2588
Location: Texas

 PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2000 4:32 pm    Post subject: Dumb Luck Rangers, Refex, or Lag? Reply with quote Back to top

I have used the staged flags to get scaredy cat heroes to explore. In one game, I noticed they were too doggone frightened to go after a distant flag.

But, this goes to show what a factor personality is on strategy. I think that my Scotch background makes me a skin flint on flags. I tend to go for the GOLD, more GOLD strategies.

I still can't finesse some of Kit's cooler strategies even in single player freestyle practice.
 
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Goldy_Bear



Joined: 13 Aug 2000
Posts: 2588
Location: Texas

 PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2000 11:16 pm    Post subject: Dumb Luck Rangers, Refex, or Lag? Reply with quote Back to top

I did mention placing an explore flag in a reverse fashion, Jay. Neither my opponents nor I were using them. Therefore, logically their Rangers luck shouldn't have been any better than mine.

I actually do use explore flags in games frequently. The particular game settings most of these games were played on were tournament settings. Most of them were focused on the KROLM rush strategy or the defending of it, where every bit of gold was critical.

Most times if I have used or seen explore flags used with these settings it has been for 100 Gold in the opponent's corner. (I am sure I haven't seen everything, this has just been my experience.) The times I have used the 100 gold flag the Rangers didn't "appear" to get to flag any faster than if I had not used it since they uncover the nomonsters map so rapidly. That may or may not be the reason why my opponents were also forgoing the flags.

In the Eldritch Circle game, there was an explore flag. My opponent had a 700 Gold flag on my kingdom. I had none on his. While his low-level heroes were dying in the forest of Daemonwoods, my Ranger was just wandering anywhere he wanted and for some reason went clear around the perimeter never encountering any baddies. DUMB LUCK!

My complaints were actually somewhat "tongue-in-cheek" when I suggested that my Rangers were less lucky than the opponents. I had recently hit a string of bad luck. I am sure over time (bar explore flags) the randomness of Ranger behavior would even out.

That random behavior is, in fact, one of Majesty's strengths and keeps it so entertaining. So, what may have appeared to be complaints in my previous post were actually just observations.

I do still believe that the random luck/unluck of Rangers in the early stages of these tournament games can give experienced players an edge in winning the game if they are able to capitalize on it.
 
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Goldy_Bear



Joined: 13 Aug 2000
Posts: 2588
Location: Texas

 PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2000 11:20 pm    Post subject: Dumb Luck Rangers, Refex, or Lag? Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks, Kit. I posted my reply to Jay before reading yours. It would never have occurred to me that not buying healing potions could be an advantage. I'll try it.
 
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Kit5150



Joined: 03 Apr 2000
Posts: 1327
Location: The Greatest Show on Turf, Missouri, USA

 PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2000 11:24 pm    Post subject: Dumb Luck Rangers, Refex, or Lag? Reply with quote Back to top

its not necessarily an advantage. i hate when my rangers run around with no potions - they lose practically everytime.

i was just hinting that is probably why your opponent finds you first.
 
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Amathar



Joined: 02 Aug 2000
Posts: 89

 PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2000 12:17 pm    Post subject: Dumb Luck Rangers, Refex, or Lag? Reply with quote Back to top

quote:
Originally posted by Jay Adan:
BTW - Does anybody else use staged explore flags to get around an obstacle? If I need to get around something like a tower I'll use a large reward to get the hero to one side of the map, then use incrementally smaller ones like a trail of bread crumbs to get the hero going exactly where I want. It's a good way to sneak a hero into your opponent's backfield.


...and terribly expensive. For 30K games, it may be worth the effort -- but then it's still just one hero (once the flag is got, other heros on the trail usually change their mind and head off to who-knows-where). For smaller gold games, I'm thinking that gold is better spent pumping your economy, or directly recruiting more heros.

Just my $0.02...


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Scion of Apology: If I'm Wrong, I'll Fix It. If You're Wrong, I'll Be Gentle.

[This message has been edited by Amathar (edited 24 August 2000).]
 
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Goldy_Bear



Joined: 13 Aug 2000
Posts: 2588
Location: Texas

 PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2000 1:03 pm    Post subject: Dumb Luck Rangers, Refex, or Lag? Reply with quote Back to top

Tried the staged flag idea in another Eldritch Circle game yesterday to try to get early look-see at my opponent and maybe take out another market. My usual luck held. The map generator planted animal dens close to the edges.

I do not think that the strategy is unsound. I just think its me. Monsters can smell me coming.
 
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Wag the Cat



Joined: 02 Apr 2000
Posts: 70

 PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2000 2:28 pm    Post subject: Dumb Luck Rangers, Refex, or Lag? Reply with quote Back to top

Feel free to place staged flags if you're my opponent. Me I'll save the cash for something that can make a difference. Makes no difference to discover your opponent if you can't stage an attack. You're in one corner, you know your opponent is going to be in the other. The only time I would figure early discovery without an attack force would be useful is if your opponent is foolish enough to make rogues before statues.
 
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Blastoiseu



Joined: 16 Apr 2000
Posts: 821

 PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2000 10:22 am    Post subject: Dumb Luck Rangers, Refex, or Lag? Reply with quote Back to top

quote:
Originally posted by Jay Adan:
Ah, okay.

BTW - Does anybody else use staged explore flags to get around an obstacle? If I need to get around something like a tower I'll use a large reward to get the hero to one side of the map, then use incrementally smaller ones like a trail of bread crumbs to get the hero going exactly where I want. It's a good way to sneak a hero into your opponent's backfield.




One word. "Eldritched Circle"


~Blastoiseu


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Xus Amegoy



Joined: 20 Jun 2000
Posts: 803
Location: Tucson, AZ, US

 PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2000 12:41 pm    Post subject: Dumb Luck Rangers, Refex, or Lag? Reply with quote Back to top

This whole dumb luck thing intrigues me. Did by any chance your opponent have gnomes?

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