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Majesty HoA; Exploration
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TaleSpinner



Joined: 08 Sep 2000
Posts: 2018
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

 PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2002 7:29 pm    Post subject: Majesty HoA; Exploration Reply with quote Back to top

Ideas and issues pertaining to Exploration in HoA.

The current system goes this like: A random number is drawn and compared against your Artiface. If it is below your Artiface, then you find something. Another random number is drawn to determine what is it you found - either an item, gold or encounter.

Sure it needs polishing up, and thats what this topic is all about.

I've been toying with the idea of making a standard Dungeon Crawl system where you have a pre-defined map and players move from one section of the dungeon to another. Like:

You are in a long, narrow N-S tunnel. The air here smells terrible. You see a door made out of rotting wood on one side.

Open the door
Go North
Go South

And maybe display a little map of the section right below the Sewer portrait.

The issues with such a system is that - what happens when players get lost? And what happens if they get killed inside - do they remain in the dungeon or get zapped back into the city? What happens when the player logs out and logs in again half-way through a dungeon crawl? And where the heck is the GM going to find time to draw up interesting maps and implement them!? And more importantly, will this be fun for players even after they've visited the same dungeon for over the 100th time?

Rogue_Knight:

Finding items that you cannot use is realistic fact in all RPGs. You can then opt to sell it or trade it. That's where the Trading Post will come in - heroes will be able to put up their own items for sale to other players. There's more fun stuff you can do with the Trading Post which will become evident once it gets developed.
 
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wavefront



Joined: 16 Oct 2001
Posts: 1847
Location: East of the Sun & West of the Moon

 PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2002 9:45 pm    Post subject: Majesty HoA; Exploration Reply with quote Back to top

Well it is entirely possible to have unique randomly generated maps for a turn-based system. The link is to all the rogue game routines (the original dungeon crawl system).

Rogue Source Code

If you need help decoding these let me know.
 
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wavefront



Joined: 16 Oct 2001
Posts: 1847
Location: East of the Sun & West of the Moon

 PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2002 12:55 am    Post subject: Majesty HoA; Exploration Reply with quote Back to top

Hmmm...
Right now I'm happy without a crawl system for exploration. I think I would rather have more options during combat than exploration, but that just me. Maybe you could post the question as to what major area people would like to see expanded first?
.
.
I would like to see a level playing field as far as monster encounters go however. The finding things part could still be tied to artifice but monsters usually find you, not the other way around Some of my characters wander around now for 20+ turns and only find a broken staff or a rusty mace and maybe a few gold pieces during all that time.

[ 03 June 2002, 02:05 AM: Message edited by: wavefront ]
 
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wavefront



Joined: 16 Oct 2001
Posts: 1847
Location: East of the Sun & West of the Moon

 PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2002 2:14 am    Post subject: Majesty HoA; Exploration Reply with quote Back to top

I just tried a Dwarf and ...
they kick butt!
Because finding things is based on artifice; during my first 24 turns:
  • I went up to second level and half way to third!
  • Found enough gold and items to buy Banded armor(400g) and Steel-shod hammer(200gp)
  • Won all of my encounters (Well, except one - It was my fault though - I forgot to use my new armor till it was too late )
Why did I do so well?
Dwarves have the second highest artifice (next to rogues) so the find all the goodies (and many encounters too). They have great HP (only Solaii and Wod's have more). Finally, they also have above average parry skills so they avoid a lot of damage.
I can't wait for a few more turns to come up. At this rate I'll make 10th level by the end of the week!
 
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wavefront



Joined: 16 Oct 2001
Posts: 1847
Location: East of the Sun & West of the Moon

 PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2002 3:15 am    Post subject: Majesty HoA; Exploration Reply with quote Back to top

I just tried Rogue...
The short story is:
Artifice too High (too many fights he couldn't win.)
Combat skills too Low (there is no profit in dying so he never can buy better armor, weapons etc.)
The Dwarf is hands down, still the best class.
 
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Rogue Knight



Joined: 16 Jan 2002
Posts: 201
Location: Denmark, Scandinavia, Europe, Outside the US

 PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2002 4:32 am    Post subject: Majesty HoA; Exploration Reply with quote Back to top

At present I like the current 'Explore Sewer' at various depths style. Easier to get in and out.

However the check versus Artiface has to be changed. Maybe those with high Artiface find better encounters or rewards. As long as my other characters (with low Artiface) actually encounter something every now and then...

A thought on the 'Map Style'... How about a limited choice of dungeon-crawls?

For instance:

"You come upon a particularly smelly tunnel. After overcoming your disgust and moving closer, you think that you hear the chatter of Goblins!"

Investigate Tunnel
Explore Sewer
Leave Sewer


The idea is that if you choose to investigate the tunnel, you enter a mini-dungeon (in this case, encountering a lost Goblin band). How elaborate such mini-dungeons would be is your choice, but it could be the 'North, South, Up' style. If you pick Explore Sewer, the option to enter the mini-dungeon is lost, and must be found again to search.
 
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The Archmage



Joined: 06 Nov 2000
Posts: 1822
Location: Wakarusa, IN; USA

 PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2002 6:22 am    Post subject: Majesty HoA; Exploration Reply with quote Back to top

Ok, I've got a couple questions/ideas for when the heroes can go Outside.

First off, will all locations on the map be automatically visible or will exploration need to be done in order to get the map? Maybe on the cities could be visible but nothing else? If this is the case then numerous other interesting things could occur. Rangers could be the ultimate exploration machine. Perhaps they could explore in 1 turn what it would take other heroes to explore in 2. Now this would create a off-balance (is this even a word?) in the game. A balance that I'm not sure how you could fix. Anyway, if the map isn't all visible, this would mean that one could sell maps with other heroes. Heroes could communicate with eachother and have an option to sell something ("I've got something to sell.")- in this case a map.

Another question: will there be shrines and other landmarks that one can find? For instance, shrines could bless or curse you. Treasure chests could give you gold or they could be bait for a goblin ambush. That kind of thing. And my last question: when you're exploring the map will you explore it like "North, East, South, West" options or how would that work?

Thanks, Talespinner for this super game. Keep up the good work!
 
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wavefront



Joined: 16 Oct 2001
Posts: 1847
Location: East of the Sun & West of the Moon

 PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2002 4:41 pm    Post subject: Majesty HoA; Exploration Reply with quote Back to top

Bug Report


quote:
Microsoft VBScript runtime error '800a0006'

Overflow

I:\SHAGGYCAT\MAJESTYAA\VALMORGAN\../Include/Functions_Fight.asp, line 174

My cultist "Test cultist" was exploring the sewers for the very first time and got that message.
My login is test cultist.

Update:
Hmmm, got the same message when I went back. This time it happened on the second explore attempt. The first explore gave me a few gold peices.

Update II:
I finally got an Encounter but I have lost several of my turns in the process. Can I get a turn refund?

TS, this reminds me of playing coin-op video games...
"Uhh Mister, the game over there ate my quarter."


[ 03 June 2002, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: wavefront ]
 
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wavefront



Joined: 16 Oct 2001
Posts: 1847
Location: East of the Sun & West of the Moon

 PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2002 5:00 pm    Post subject: Majesty HoA; Exploration Reply with quote Back to top

More Bugs


quote:
Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error '80004005'

[Microsoft][ODBC Microsoft Access Driver] Could not update; currently locked by user 'admin' on machine 'PATRICIA'.

I:\SHAGGYCAT\MAJESTYAA\VALMORGAN\../Include/cHero.asp, line 390

This happened with the same hero and login as above, but this time I was going to the market.
 
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Spiderman



Joined: 28 Mar 2000
Posts: 3053
Location: Baltimore, MD USA

 PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2002 3:01 pm    Post subject: Majesty HoA; Exploration Reply with quote Back to top

I was wondering if a direct link can be made from the Lower Sewer level to the town, in addition to Ascending a level, since it doesn't cost any movement points anyway.
 
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Spiderman



Joined: 28 Mar 2000
Posts: 3053
Location: Baltimore, MD USA

 PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2002 1:13 pm    Post subject: Majesty HoA; Exploration Reply with quote Back to top

I was also wondering if an adjustment can be made regarding the monster mix so not-so-melee/fighting-inclined heros can survive better (unless there's other things in the works).

On the first level of the Sewers, aside from lowering the Rat's HP to what it is in MajX (19 instead of 29), you could put some of the Rust Spitters up there (max of each 2). Maybe have the encounter with 2 Ratmen pretty rare...
 
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DreamRain



Joined: 09 Jun 2000
Posts: 537
Location: San Jose, California

 PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2002 2:32 pm    Post subject: Majesty HoA; Exploration Reply with quote Back to top

My two cents on a few things...this might fall partly under the 'combat' and partly under 'hero balance' but I'm sticking it here.

Exploration seems too random. By this I mean, it doesn't really matter what class your character is, there's too much random in 'how lucky' he/she is in finding stuff and the combats encountered. If you get lucky, you think, 'this one rocks', if you're unlucky, you think 'this one sucks'. But it's just dumb luck rather than the abilities of the character. While this is fun, there's not much 'skill' involved.

I'm used to characters in games having a more equal ability to level up in the same amount of time - in this case, it would be equal amount of combats vs how many turns spent. This has sooo not been the case for me.
My Monk and Elf encounter nothing but Ratmen (Monk can often handle it, Elf can't). My Wiz and Adept encounter nothing but Giant Rats. My Adept leveled up in the VERY FIRST 12 turns. My Monk almost got to Lvl2 in 30 or so turns, but the past 30 more turns every 'explore the sewers' turns up absolutely nothing.
My Wizard finds the most money, finds the most items, and has a ROP already, but he's still only Lvl1, and the Ratmen must be scared of him cause they never show their faces.

My point here is that while random is good, too much random is not. None of these characters are 'better' than the other - they just got lucky/unlucky in terms of what they encounter/find. If I created a new Monk, he's just as likely to get to Level2 in 12 turns as he is to be stuck at Lvl1 for 60 turns. It's like flipping a coin all the time. So in that respect, I'd probably like RogueKnight's partial 'dungeon crawl' idea, if it meant that in some areas, at least, what I get is a bit more predictable in terms of EXP. to be gained, items to be found, etc. You could always make it 'hard' to find those areas or something.

Like Jak, I don't mean to sound like I don't like the game - I do like it, quite a bit. But it'd be a nice addition if it felt a bit more like my decisions/choices had an effect on the game and my character, instead of always the 'flip the coin' method.
 
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wavefront



Joined: 16 Oct 2001
Posts: 1847
Location: East of the Sun & West of the Moon

 PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2002 10:59 pm    Post subject: Majesty HoA; Exploration Reply with quote Back to top

quote:
Originally posted by DreamRain:
My two cents on a few things...this might fall partly under the 'combat' and partly under 'hero balance' but I'm sticking it here.

Exploration seems too random. By this I mean, it doesn't really matter what class your character is, there's too much random in 'how lucky' he/she is in finding stuff and the combats encountered. If you get lucky, you think, 'this one rocks', if you're unlucky, you think 'this one sucks'. But it's just dumb luck rather than the abilities of the character. While this is fun, there's not much 'skill' involved.

The single most important hero statistic is Artifice. Artifice is the determining factor in what you find. Heroes with a high artifice will run into monsters nearly every turn. Heroes with a low artifice won't find anything.
 
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Jakartiz



Joined: 15 Feb 2002
Posts: 272
Location: Council Bluffs , Iowa USA

 PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2002 11:26 pm    Post subject: Majesty HoA; Exploration Reply with quote Back to top

General question:

Considering that the majority of this game adheres to original Majesty guidelines, shouldnt the ranger gain some exp from each exploration turn?



And by the way, what is that reward flag doing above my head

[ 09 June 2002, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: Jakartiz ]
 
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DreamRain



Joined: 09 Jun 2000
Posts: 537
Location: San Jose, California

 PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2002 1:00 am    Post subject: Majesty HoA; Exploration Reply with quote Back to top

yes, I know about artifice. My point was that it didn't seem to be working very well.

The Adept has what...an 8 artifice? And the monk..a 9? A wizard..9 or 10?

My point is, and perhaps I made it poorly (I've been known to do that, hehe) that over many turns, the Elf has had *no more average encounters* than the Adept, Wiz, and the Monk. She does, however, have many more Ratmen encounters than the others, which is why she dies all the time and is slow to get experience. And the Wiz gets the most 'gold and item' encounters - far more than the Elf. She finally got some exp. tho.

I still think it's too random, despite the fact that artifice is supposed to affect things.
 
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