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Temples and Their Gods
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Goldy_Bear



Joined: 13 Aug 2000
Posts: 2588
Location: Texas

 PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 8:01 am    Post subject: Temples and Their Gods Reply with quote Back to top

Spidey, I might be mistaken but I think most of Alfryd's comments were with regard to multiplayer. Cyberlore did make some attempts to "balance" the game for the original game for multi-player. One of their patches was mostly for multiplayer fine tuning but I don't believe they ever made any attempt to "balance" the game for the Northern Expansion. The expansion got some patches for major bugs and that was about it.
 
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Alfryd



Joined: 03 Dec 2002
Posts: 914

 PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 4:16 pm    Post subject: Temples and Their Gods Reply with quote Back to top

quote:
Ah, but I believe that the feuds erupted practically as soon as the new gods came on the scene. The exceptions might be Agrela/Fervus and Krypta/Dauros, since they aren't diametrically opposed and, you're right, it did take some time for their "present-day" alliances to codify.
Now, now. According to the official history, it did take a century or three for Helia and Lunord to get at eachother's throat's after Krolm's smackdown with Andraxal-Kerlazor, then there was the temporary alliance following the Six-Winters' war, and then there was the period when both the Sky Gods' faiths were gravely weakened during the crusades of Makkat the Mad, and might not have been so choosy about their company. And, strictly speaking, Krolm has no bone to pick with the New Gods, since they were not responsible for creating civilisation (barbarians rub shoulders with the wizards, after all.) I made dauros incompatible because he taks civilisation as the fount of law, and fervus since he's too anarchic to tolerate the authority figure of Krolm. I made Helia incomptible with Krypta because sunlight damages many undead, and Lunord incompatable with Agrela because the pacifist healers can't stand a War God. Of course, Krolm can be warlike too, but he's also a creator.
But of course, this is all just rationalisation. I want to see healers following barbarians! Nothing shall stop me then! Mwahahahahahaha!
 
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Spiderman



Joined: 28 Mar 2000
Posts: 3053
Location: Baltimore, MD USA

 PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 7:37 am    Post subject: Temples and Their Gods Reply with quote Back to top

quote:
Originally posted by Goldy_Bear:
Spidey, I might be mistaken but I think most of Alfryd's comments were with regard to multiplayer.

I could not tell if they were or not in his first post. He only sort of mentions MP in the third.

[ 22. September 2003, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: Spiderman ]
 
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Whitedog



Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 74
Location: the Great White North

 PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 6:49 pm    Post subject: Temples and Their Gods Reply with quote Back to top

You know, from the way I've read the history, it seems to me that it's the worshippers who can't get along more than the deities themselves. The rival temples aren't build in the same kingdome because the worshippers refuse to be in such close proximity to each other, not because the powers that be don't allow them to be built. Otherwise they probably wouldn't allow Wizard's Guilds and Sorcerer's Abodes to be built either since those also could be considered a type of power worship. As for whether or not they are perfectly balanced, that will probably be impossible to accomplish 100% if you want to keep a wide variety of abilities in the game. It's kind of like comparing apples and oranges...
 
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Spiderman



Joined: 28 Mar 2000
Posts: 3053
Location: Baltimore, MD USA

 PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 7:03 am    Post subject: Temples and Their Gods Reply with quote Back to top

I read it more as the gods passing their biases down to their followers.
 
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Wizard-lord Baldur



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 20
Location: The Tower of Baldur

 PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 5:00 pm    Post subject: Temples and Their Gods Reply with quote Back to top

who says culties are weaker than monks they can charm monsters that would lay out a monk
 
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M



Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 421
Location: Right here

 PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2003 4:28 am    Post subject: Temples and Their Gods Reply with quote Back to top

Well, Monks can kill Cultists every tiMe they fight, and once your Monk gets a few levels, it can kill an arMy of Hell Bears!
 
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floyd



Joined: 15 Oct 2003
Posts: 44
Location: the forest of fervus!

 PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2003 1:28 pm    Post subject: Temples and Their Gods Reply with quote Back to top

well, if monks ever get hit then theyre screwed
 
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Falotar



Joined: 22 Jan 2001
Posts: 2579
Location: Yaro'on the Fair

 PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2003 4:58 pm    Post subject: Temples and Their Gods Reply with quote Back to top

[b]Now, now. According to the official history, it did take a century or three for Helia and Lunord to get at eachother's throat's after Krolm's smackdown with Andraxal-Kerlazor, then there was the temporary alliance following the Six-Winters' war, and then there was the period when both the Sky Gods' faiths were gravely weakened during the crusades of Makkat the Mad, and might not have been so choosy about their company. And, strictly speaking, Krolm has no bone to pick with the New Gods, since they were not responsible for creating civilisation (barbarians rub shoulders with the wizards, after all.)[/quote][/qb]

Yes, but Wizards don't worship any specific god.
quote:
I made dauros incompatible because he taks civilisation as the fount of law, and fervus since he's too anarchic to tolerate the authority figure of Krolm. I made Helia incomptible with Krypta because sunlight damages many undead, and Lunord incompatable with Agrela because the pacifist healers can't stand a War God. Of course, Krolm can be warlike too, but he's also a creator.[/bq]
Um, pretty good arguments. But, I think you overlook a few things: Krolm doesn't hate civilization for its own sake. He hates it because Lunord and Helia steered humanity towards it, and at the same time away from him. (also, I believe he's jealous that he didn't think of it first.)
Lunord and Helia were somewhat opposed from the beginning - what with Helia ruling the day and Lunord the night. As the centuries wore on their rivalry deepened, in part because their pet city-states were becoming hostile. In this way, I think, humanity's actions influenced the gods' for once in Ardanian history. And since none of the eldest three gods is apt, I think, to be very forgiving, I don't think they'd ever join forces except where absolutely necessary. Like in the Six Winters War, where both were so tired they couldn't keep their respective orbs lit.
As for the other gods, Krolm's "grandchildren", if you will; why should Krolm dislike them? Probably just because they are rivals for his attention. I believe it is his nature to be a very jealous god, and he's even more leery about sharing out the power after his children betrayed him.
You do realize, don't you, that if Agrela drew away from Lunord on account of his being warlike, she'd have to abandon all of the other gods as well, don't you? all of the gods' champions are fighters (including Agrela's, for that matter - for pacifists, they certainly berserk a great deal. They must spend at least half their time in a blood rage, if the game is anything to go by).
And, while sunlight does supposedly weakens undead, Krypta is more than the patroness of necromancy. Death strikes just as frequently in the day as at night. So, I don't think Krypta would be opposed to Helia.

[qb]
quote:
But of course, this is all just rationalisation. I want to see healers following barbarians! Nothing shall stop me then! Mwahahahahahaha!

But it's the rationalization that makes it fun. Debating the exact reasons why made-up gods hate each other - what could be a better pastime?
But, while we're having wishes: I wouldn't mind having Krypta and Dauros be compatible. I could get my two favourite heroes fighting beside each other that way. But, it would need a catalyst outside the existing gods, and a Major Event too.
And, Baldur, just which monster were you suggesting, given the limit of Cultists' Charm ability, could take down a Monk?
 
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TaleSpinner



Joined: 08 Sep 2000
Posts: 2018
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

 PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2003 10:18 pm    Post subject: Temples and Their Gods Reply with quote Back to top

Well, back to the original question - I would think it would be a nice idea to legally allow different, opposing temples be built in the same town. It's the player's choice as Sovereign what and where buildings should be.

However, I would then like to see the increased difficulty of keeping a stable town of such conflicting faiths. Incautious rulers might suddenly find riots or his own heroes fighting each other. Ideally, as Sovereign, his job would be to maintain stability among his heroes via a balance of force (i.e. more guards/guard towers) and hero loyalty.

This actually even fits with the History of Ardania - i.e. the rulership under Good King Teevus who boldly stated that he followed ALL faiths and that each faith added together made up a complete individual or something like that.
 
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wavefront



Joined: 16 Oct 2001
Posts: 1847
Location: East of the Sun & West of the Moon

 PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2003 4:49 pm    Post subject: Temples and Their Gods Reply with quote Back to top

I agree.
I think you should be allowed to build what ever you want (hey, it's your kingdom). Just program the game to make certain combinations become unmanageable. Let the player experience first hand the results of his or her mismanagement (with an appropriate comment from the royal advisor, "Your Majesty, the Dwarves and Elves are fighting each other!").
 
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floyd



Joined: 15 Oct 2003
Posts: 44
Location: the forest of fervus!

 PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:04 pm    Post subject: Temples and Their Gods Reply with quote Back to top

yeah that could be fun tell some stupid noob that elves and dwarves make a great combo and next thing you know its the somme
 
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floyd



Joined: 15 Oct 2003
Posts: 44
Location: the forest of fervus!

 PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:06 pm    Post subject: Temples and Their Gods Reply with quote Back to top

that would be SWEEEEET
 
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TaleSpinner



Joined: 08 Sep 2000
Posts: 2018
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

 PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 10:04 pm    Post subject: Temples and Their Gods Reply with quote Back to top

I wouldn't completely rule that it would be totally impossible to build rival buildings in the same town though - just VERY DIFFICULT to maintain. So, if you really, really GOOD at Majesty, it is possible to run a town of Elves and Dwarves, or Barbs and WoDs, or Priestesses and Healers. etc.
 
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